liquidators. >> a lot of folks not sayin the same thing for the general markets, ada what do you say? >> i think it's going to be a difficult time going forward for the markets. >> ben? >> i think predicting thetock market is extremely difficult. hard to predict, especially about the future. > there is absolute no evidence and every enomist will tell you that, that there is any job loss related to the affordable ce act. >> absolutely no evidence? the white house's point person for obamacare must have forgotten this point. companies announcing plans to cut jobs or their workers' hours due to the heal care law. and this survey shong nearly half of u.s. companies may reduce their workforce because of the law. not to mention the alarming recent report from the independent congressional budget ofce. so is obamacare hurting jobs or not? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." let's go in focus with steve

forbes, rich carlguard, elizabeth macdonald, sabrina safer, rick unger and john tamma tammany. john, is it hurting jobs or not? >> the secretary's commentis a reminder of how fraudulent the economics pression has become. the simple truth is obamacare is a huge cost for businesses. that's going to reduce profits. reduced profits means less investment which means lower job creation. you don't need a ph.d. to state the obvious. this is common sense. it's anti-capital formations and anti-job creation. >> she said every economist. we've spoken to economists who don't say that, even democratic economists admit there's going to be some job loss. >> i will agree with you that saying every economist is an overstatement. i know some who disagree with her. but two quick points. first, i'll remind you two weeks ago, aol tried to pull a big

change in their 401(k) pgram blaming obamacare. nobody bought it. it was a lie and they had to back off of it. a lot of companies are trying to blame obamacare when they want to do something else. point number two, remember, 96% of american businesses do not employ enough emoyees to even be qualified for obamacare. so we're only talking about 4% of the companies and aumber of them are self-insured. the numbers are not -- >> steve, theyust delayed as we talked about last week, a portion of obamacare -- i say they. president obama delayed it, that dealt with 40 million workers. we're not just talking about a piddlingmount of workers. talking about a lot of people. >> yeah. and obamacare originally wanted to extend the employer mandate, which means expenses for businesses that didn't have them before. and also there's a big tax increase, david. if you earn more, your subsidies go down under obamacare. if you go from 35,0$35,000 to $50,000 a year, when you add up

the taxes, it can reach 50%. that's a mobility killer. job killer, mobility kilr, un-american. >> un-american. rich, the fact is that we already have not only the surveys, a lot of anecdotal evidence. the economisjust came out with a re focusing on individual job owners who are cutting back their staf their full-time staff, because of obamacare. >> yeah. that's absolutely true. the congressional budget office which is nonpartisan, esteemed by both parties, predicts that 2 million people will leave the labor force. i think when 2 million people decide to ave the labor force from an already abysmal labor participation raitt, that counts as job loss. we're going to be 61% labor force participation by 2017. that breaks all records on the downside. >> and, sabrina, it's not just the right wing fanatics who are sang this.

>> no. >> the university of california at berkeley -- we used to call it berserkly in the old days. they're saying this. >> this is a perfect time to quote mark twain. lies, damn lies and the statistics. the facts are on our side. uc berkeley is anticipating ove 2.3 million jobs cut dowto fit that 30-hour minimum. the cbo -- it's not complicated. $500 billion in new taxes, $800 billn in new regulations and $1 trillion in new subsidies. this is not aecipe for job creation. >> and then there's also the disincentive for work. we talked about that cbo report talked about that. alan blier was talking abo that. he is a democratic economist with the clinton administration. he said, your health care subsidy declines as you earn more. and that, of course, dulls the incentive to work, just as if your wage rate was falling. so there's also this aspect to it. >> yeah, there's that aspect.

and this is sort of like what the cbo study was saying. you're going to be liberated from your job. this is the democratic line, you're going to be liberated. health care reform allows us to be liberated -- listen, i'd like to learn to play the piano and have everybody subsidize me. but what we're talking about -- what sabrina is talking about is absolutely right. the lunatic complexity of health reform has turned into that saying, a camel is a horse designed by committee. that's hurting small businesses who are already paying effective rates, total tax in, all in, two-thirds of their ofits to texass. medical device makers are seeing layoffs, because of the excise tax on their sales. what the madam secretary says is provably wrong. the fact that there are thousands of layoffs in the medical device industry taking place over the last couple of years, directly attributable to health reform and --

>> and, john, for her to say there's absolutely no evidence, every onomist says this, how much longer do you think it will be before they realize people don't believe what they say when they come out with these statements? >> well, it's another gift fm the obama administration, discrediting the obama administration. what interests me also is i think a couple of years ago, they were saying this was actually going to stimulate growth. this would be the first bill that would reduce labor participation that would increase economic growth. they keep grasping for straws here and it's noworking. they are being exposed and it's a lot of fun to watch. >> rick, it's fun unless you're on the receiving end of being told by your employer, i'm sorry, we can't keep you on as full time anymore because of obamacare. >> is thera question there? >> yeah. >> what wathe question? >> the question is, that's not fun, is it? >> no. i don't think i would have chosen the words that john did. but i really do like that a camel is nothing but a horse made by committee. never heard that before.

i've learned something today. >> really? i have more for you. >> let's be crefu about this whole cbo report that rich said counts as losing jobs. it doesn't. its illical. i don't like the idea that anybody might be disincentivized to work because of a subsidy. but a person poion of those peop are going to leave their jobs that they had to keep to keep their health insurance and go start new businesses which is good for theconomy. let's not forget -- >> but, steve, the point is what's good for the economy right now, steve forbes, is jobs. we need it more than we need anything else right now to get the economy vin and anything that would hurt job growth is bad, right? >> yeah. this is a massive impediment, massive barrier to a job creation starting businesses. and even if you want to start a busiss, you have to have a an, you have to have the prospects. and if you don't know what your costs are, good luck in getting the financing to do it and even if you get the financing, how about growing it? >> sabrina, you wanted in. go ahead.

>> i think this is highlighting the real tragedy of obamacare. we had an oportunity to separate health insurance, not health care, health insurance, from our place of employment to give a break to employers, to give more flexibility to workers, to lower costs all around. but nstead, we've made that tie even tighter. so we're seeing the law is actually decreasing jobs instead allowing -- just the opposite. medicare for all, baby. >> secretary sebelius should become a guide at fantasy land at disney world when she retires. coming up next, here we go again. your tax dollars helped fund it. now a chinese company owns it. and guess who's left holding the bag on a

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twitter questions answered on ukraine. when will we learn? first u.s. taxpayers funded fisker. then it went bust. now a chinese company just bought it for 150 million bucks. but we're still on the hook for $139 million, we the taxpayers. elizeth, you say we've seen it before. it's time to stop the cycle once and for. >> y. jim demint had it right. this is socialism the worst order. since 2009, 32 billion bucks in loans went out the door t26 different projects. only about 2,300 jobs created.

that's about $14 million we spent per job when the president said, we're going to get 5 million green jobs by 2018. a lot of the money went to establish big utilities and companies that wersponsored by goldman sachs. is this theay we want to go? >> andhe false promise, again back to these false promises. we have to call these liticians to account for what they've said. vice president biden said this in 2009 in delaware -- this is seed money, the money that was going to fisker, that will return back to the american consumer in billions and billions and billions of dollars in good, new jobs. well, guess what? it's returning but to china. >> c i say oops? >> i wish he would. >> once again. >> we get lo of the negative stories. but let's talk about tesla whose stock is skyrocketing. they got more money than they

did and paid it back early and created a technology that's going to benefit everybody in the future. and if you're enjoying watching us on television right now, the reason you have your televion is from government subsidy and government creative assistant in creating the television. >> oh, my gosh. >> you and al gore have to get together. steve, the fact is that there are plenty of examples of companies that we have spent billions of dollars on that have gone bust in this whole green energy project of the president. we can put some of them up on the screen. one of those companies, the battery matter, the same chinese company that jus bought fisker also bought that. the more we spend, the more the chinese are raking iin buying these companies at a fire sale. >> yeah, i want to correct rick. i invented levision. >> you were just its first big star. >> forbes is tv! >> but it's one thing for government to do basic research. quite another to pretend it's an investment banker.

leave investment banking for others and stick to the basics. you get a tesla every once in a while but you have more and more disasters. they're not in the business. they d't have the discipline. let those who know what they're doing have a crack at it. not bureaucrats who don't know what they're doing and playing politics government is politics, period. >> ch, does the tesla example excuse all these failures? >> no and i live out here where there's a tesla every other car. i think apple will buy them and everybody's going to make a lot of money. but, look, the government should be doing r & d on new energy sources. we should be doing more of it. what we should not be doing is trying to pick wners because then the money is always going to go to the politically connected and what you do is you crowd out real entrepreneurs when you do that. >> well, john, the fact is whenever you have government involved, you have politicians wanting a piece of it for their constituents so they can get reelected, right? >> yeah. i'm going to have to disagree with rich here, too.

government should not be in the investment business, period. >> i didn't say that. >> even basic r & d, if you have a clue about how to do that, it's going to be much better allocated in the private sector. if you understand investment, you're going to make billions in the private sector over the salary you'd make the federal government. and to rick's point about government creating television, the notionhat we woun't have televisi absent government is laughable. government gets its resources from us all of it creates is from us. we just do a much better job. >> hold on a second. we haven't heard from sabrina. sabrina, i want to get back to the main point of this. after all this money that we put into this company, the chinese are buying it. we put a lot of money into chrysler and we gave that to the italians. now we're giving these companies to the chinese. there's something wrong with that. >> right. we're back in fantasy land, disney world. the reality is that six times

more federal subsidies into green energy than on fossil fuels yet the private sector is backing away from green energy because it's not been profitable thus far. we now bp ditch its wind investment. we saw solyndra and fisker. these are serious problems. we need new ideas. and federal subsidies simply prop up otherwise failing businesses. they don't make it a successful business. it crowds out real innovation. >> and where is the executive order for keystone? >> right. >> the terrible irony here is that we're slamming small businesses, two-thirds of their profits go to taxes. and that money is going away from small businesses paying to the government to these green energy companies. it's like putting green lipstick on a pig when it's going to companies like solyndra or fisker or companies the chinese then buy. >> yeah. we're now subsidizing chinese companies. you're as appalled by that as we are, aren't you? >> yeah. but we're not reallysubsidizing

them. we're just picking bad businesses in some cases -- >> and giving them money. >> and the chise are taking advante. but, again, you can'teight this all in one direction. we've also invested in some very successful ones like tesla and more important -- >> i think rick just hit upon something. people taking advantage of these situations. that's the problem. when you have a government program like this, you always find somebody, whether they're here or in china orin italy, taking advantage of it, taking advantage of us, the taxpayer. >> politics is involved. just look at fannie and freddie. now they're ba in business again. they never learn because it's a source of money for them, taking from us and giving to themselves. first it was a democrat's argument for obamacare. now the president's top economic viser says hiking the minimum wage will let americans work less. is that really what americans want if it means for government power? that's at the bottom of the

hour. but first, this one is going to make you mad, one way or the other. there's a new bill to let teachers spank kids hard enough to actually leave a mark. but not everyone here has a problem with that. stay tuned. (vo) you are a business pro. seeker of the sublime. you can separate runway diculousness... from fashionhat flies off the shves. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. and only national isanked highest in car rental customer satisfaction by j.d. power. (natalie) ooooh, i like your style. (vo) so doe, business pro. so do we. go nationa go like pro.

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> a smackdown over a new spanking bill. one lawmaker in kansas wants to let teachers and caregivers spankids, not just once but up to ten times and they'd even be allowed to cause redns or bruising. sabrina, should the government be getting involved at all in this? >> gosh, no.

i talked to my mom last night. she was a teacher for many years. this is sort of heartbreaking when you think of it. i have three little kids. i know hownruly they can get. but violence and anger begets more violence and anger. >> john, should the government be getting at all involved in this? >> oh, i think we probably should relax a little here. growing up, i had teachers who were violent. i certainly had coaches who were violent with me. some of us probably have british cestors who had their knuckles wrapped. parents should makechoices. some want a lot of discipline, some a little. >> can we start by spanking you? >> no spanking! 're going to hear from the boss now. i remember a shop teaer who grabbed me and banged me up against the locker. it went with the territory in the old days. why should we not bring it back? >> because the culture's changed. i was thrown ainst the wall fodissing a teacher.

but the problem in schools is not about spanking. it's about all these rulebooks, litition. it's hard for teachers to have diipline. spank the lawyers, spank congress and we'll be off to a good start. >> rich, what steve is saying in a less neurotic, maybe less leg would work. but we can't go bac there anymore, no matter how much we would like. >> yeah. i really wish we could. john is right. kids are a lot more resilient than parents and psychologist ever imagine. and i think spanking can be appropriate. but the probably is, giving the authorit to government-employed teachers who are protected by a union because we know there are bad apples in that bunch and you can never fire them. >> e-mac's head is exploding. >> any government worker comes near any child, i will spank them and punch them in the nose.

government is not allowed -- no teacher is -- no teacher is allowed to touch a child. i am so against this. this is making me so crazy. almost want to yield to rick unger. i would go down tomorrow on a plane and i wi spank that kansas lawmaker who even thought after this. i'm going to give him 20 spankings until he changes his mind. >> rick unger, go ahead. >> the most important thing i just hed was steve gave us words to live by. spank the lawyers! of course it's ridiculous. nobody should be touching our kids. >> spank the lawmaker. >> probably including us. but what's sad is this is what republican state legislators are proposing. >> this was a democrat. this was a democrat. >> a lot of these legislators are democrat. we have to leave it at that. coming up, stocks so good our informers are just telling you to buy them, they're buying them with their own money. which stocks are they buying? which stocks are they buying? find out in a moment. there's this kid.

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pradaxa side effects include indigestion, stomach pain, upset, or burning. if you or someone you love has afib nocaused by a heart valve problem... ...ask your doctor about reducing the risk of stroke with pradaxa. and we are back. our informers have stocks lie that i can so much they're buying themselves. >> i might put money in cabot oilnd gas. >> i think a stronger dollar is going to make that dangerous. >> blackberry, this is an old device company. why do you like it? >> new management plus there are many devotees to blackberry, includinmyfather.

i think it's goingo make a comeback. >> and that $19 billion sale has raised that value of blackberry as wel >> might be a takeover play. big gs on wall street looking at as a takver py. catching a f boat anchor right now. watch out. >> eric bolling and "cashin' in" right now. taking the american work ethic and throwing it out the window. it's the dirty little secret behind the president's big push to lift the minimum wage. >> it's time for the minimum wage to go up. >> president obama still pounding the iss. wait til you hear why these liberals want to raise it. this minimum image will give you maximum rage. and slamming the door on big labor. auto worke telling the uaw to [ bleep ] off. there should be a wake-up call for unio everywhere. and here's controversy. johnny carson's writer, whyhis no laughing matter for america.